Author – Dr Suresh Kumar

S. K. It is generally argued that traditional Punjabi societies have been liberal or less casteist as compared to other regions such as Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu Andhra and Kerala etc. to what extent do you agree to this?

RK. H. Yes, this is substantially true.  It is a historically established fact that Punjab and the North-east regions of the country were less afflicted by the constraints of caste and untouchability. Punjab, because of its distinctive geographical condition and location, has been the centre of the frequent immigration from Afghanistan, Iran and other places. In addition, Punjab also witnessed many invasions from the alien powers. Therefore, naturally, both immigrants and invaders brought their respective cultures to Punjab. Punjab, in way, was a sort of ‘contact zone’ and Punjabi societies became automatically dynamic, inclusive and assimilating. The Hindu system of untouchability could not take its roots in Punjab because of the frequent immigrations and social, cultural and religious mobility. Consequently, the traditional Punjabi societies were less casteist as compared to other regions.

S. K. Brahmanical Hinduism has never been a dominant religion in Punjab but still the Punjabi Dalits talk of caste-based discrimination and exploitation. Where do you locate the origin of untouchability in Punjabi society?

RK. H. Certain historical studies have maintained that the precept of caste was not known to the traditional Punjabi societies since the Harappan civilisation.  It was only after the arrival of the Aryans that the Hindu Varna system made its way into Punjab. Although, the Varna system was purely based on occupations and untouchability was not its part but still, the initiation of this system began to divide both labour and labourers almost in the modern Hindu ways. But despite that, the Vedic Brahmanism, as I earlier said, could take its roots in Punjab and could disturb the traditional egalitarianism there because it began to be radically challenged by egalitarian Buddhism in the 5th century BCE. Punjab also became a significant centre of Buddhist learning because of the Taxila University that was situated in the undivided Punjab. Besides, the invasions and conquest of Islam, the beginning of the Bhakti Movement and the Sikhism obstructed the way of Brahmanical Hinduism for many centuries. So, the origin of caste is many latter phenomena in Punjab.

S. K. How do you see caste in Sikhism?

RK. H. Sikhism as a socio-religious reform movement came into being in the sixteenth century. It was opposed to all kinds of hierarchal divisions based on caste, class, birth and religion. The Sikh gurus abolished all kinds of discrimination and the Khalsa democratised socio-cultural relations. It was because of their anti-caste standpoint and the inclusion of the low castes in their faith that the Sikh gurus were attacked and tormented frequently both by Hindu and Muslim rulers. But despite the sustained and severe oppositions from both communities of Hindus and Muslims, Sikhism stood firmly against the precept of caste for a long span of time. It was only in the last quarter of the nineteenth century, especially under the regime of Ranjeet Singh that casteism entered equalitarian and humanitarian Sikhism. It is noted that by the end of the rule of Ranjeet Singh, Sikhism got Brahmanised and Gurdwaras went under the control of Hindu mahants which accounted for the strengthening of the prejudice of caste in traditionally democratic Sikhism. Gradually, the Jat Sikhs, who were a landholding community became powerful and held other castes such as Ramdasis, Mazhabis and even some artisans as untouchables. The untouchables were not allowed in Gurdwaras and they were given Karah prasad from a distance. Consequently, by the middle of the nineteenth century, casteism became more rigid in Punjab as compared to other regions.

Read also – In Conversation With Kamal Dev Pall, Punjabi Dalit Poet And Activist

S. K. You are a historian and have researched and published extensively on Dalit history in Punjab. Will you please elaborate on Dalit movements there?

RK. H. As discussed earlier, the precepts of caste and untouchability were challenged by Buddhism, Siddhas, Natha Yogis, Islam and of course Sikhism. But as everyone knows that they were not purely Dalit movements.  It was only in the 19th century with the emergence of Dalit intellectuals such as Sadhu Wazir Singh, Sant Gulab Dass, Giani Ditt Singh and others that the Dalit awakening began in Punjab. These intellectuals radically questioned caste and untouchability and also mobilised Dalits and other subjugated, marginalised masses against the existing chauvinistic socio-cultural and religious divisions. And thus prepared the ground for the Dalit uprising. It is noted that the autonomous Dalit movement in Punjab was initiated in the 1920s by Mangoo Ram Mugowalia. Mugowalia vocalised the demand of Dalit personhood, rights, dignity and identity. He voiced protest against both Sikhism and Hinduism and appealed to his followers to call themselves as Ad Dharmis. The Ad Dharma movement as founded by Mugowalia encouraged Dalits to educate themselves and imbibe a sense of dignity and morality.

S. K. What were the impacts of the Dalit uprising in Punjab?

RK. H. These early Dalit movements played a significant role in Dalit awakening and their mobilisation in Punjab. They awakened Dalits and made them aware of their deprivation, marginalisation and subjection to the Jat Sikhs, who were standing at the top of the caste hierarchy and also were controlling a huge part of the economic resources. I would say that these movements led to the initiation of a pan-Indian Dalit movement called the Bahujan Samaj Movement in India.

S. K. Since Dalit literature is an integral part of the Dalit liberation movement and it has undoubtedly played a significant role in Dalit awakening and mobilisation. Could you please elaborate on the historiography of Punjabi Dalit literature?

RK. H. The historical trends that I talked about and Sikhism provided Dalits with an opportunity to read and write and to lead a life that was comparatively less afflicted by caste. So, Punjabi Dalits who felt relaxed in social status began to produce literature much earlier than the Dalits of other regions. It is interesting to note that the historiography of Punjabi Dalit literature goes back to the early eighteenth century when Bhai Jaita, a low caste Mazhabi, who was closely associated with the guru household composed a poem ‘Sri Gur Katha’ around Guru Govind Singh’s life somewhere around 1699. Subsequently, the legacy of Dalit writing was carried forward by Dalit writers such as Kehar Singh Ravidasia who compiled a copy of Guru Granth Sahib in the 1730s. After him, the Dalit intellectuals Sadhu Wazir Singh, Giani Ditt Singh, Sadhu Daya Singh Arif and many others wrote extensively to scorn the precept of caste. The origin of the Ad Dharm movement in the twentieth century revolutionised Dalit literary movement and produced many poets. Gur Das Ram Alam, Hazara Singh Mushtaq, Sant Ram Udasi, Lal Singh Dil and others contributed significantly to the Punjabi literature. In recent years, the Punjabi Dalit writers are producing every genre and the Punjabi Dalit literature is as prolific as in the other regions such as in Marathi, Tamil, Kannada, Hindi, Telugu and Bangla languages.

S. K. Do you find Punjabi Dalit literature different from traditional Punjabi writings?

RK. H. Yes, the Punjabi Dalit writings are entirely different from the traditional writings. It is mainly because the mainstream Punjabi writers do not address Dalit issues adequately in their creative writings. Their literature is composed within a high caste feudalistic framework. Therefore, they are deliberately inadequate in their depiction of Dalits and representation of caste issues when they attempt to write about Dalits. The Dalit characters as etched in the high caste writers’ writings are always poor, weak and incapable of action and fighting back against the oppressors. They are not granted voice, agency and autonomy and are always marionettes in the hands of the high caste heroes or fate. Dalit writers revolt against this trend and stereotype prevalent among the high caste writers and produce literature in which Dalits are actors and capable of controlling the course of their lives and fighting back.

S. K. What makes Punjabi Dalit literature different?

RK. H. As I said, the Dalit writers place the caste body at the centre of their writings, challenge the dominant socio-economic forces and demand Dalit rights vociferously. They also problematise the existing caste dominated power structure and relations. It is the radical departure from the caste, class, cultural, religious and literary traditions that makes Punjabi Dalit literature different.

S.K. You know well that Dalits are granted reservation in politics to ensure their empowerment and political representation but despite that, they still are on the political margins. What according to you accounts for this disparity?

RK. H. There are two kinds of reservations, the first is political reservation the second is in the field of education and services. The first was initially meant only for 10 years but the successive governments have extended it every 10 years as it serves their interests. But the second kind of reservation which is not time-limited has played a very significant role in Dalit empowerment. It has enabled them to educate themselves, get into prestigious jobs and professions. But in the Political sphere, the Dalit leaders have been used by the high caste leaders just as instruments to get into power. Even the democratically elected Dalit leaders are not given autonomy to work as they want. Their decisions are always influenced by the high caste leaders and thus they are always subordinated and cheated in the political domain.

S. K. Can reservation counter or annihilate caste?

RK. H. No, reservation cannot annihilate caste. It is just an apparatus to empower Dalits and to lessen the socio-economic exploitation that they traditionally were subjected to on the account of their outcast status. I think Dalits need to initiate a huge cultural movement at an all-India level if they really want to annihilate caste.  I think education can play a very important role in the initiation of a cultural revolution. Besides, the Dalit middle class has a very vital role to play.

S. K. It is generally argued that the modern Dalit movement has many digressions and diversions and it is full of contradictions. Do you agree on this?

RK. H. Unfortunately Dalits did not have a rich cultural capital as Brahmins and other upper castes always enjoyed. Although, Dalits have great thinkers and intellectuals such as Kabir and Ravidas they could not organise their thoughts and ideas into successful movements. Along with other socio-political factors, the lack of cultural capital also leads to diversions and digressions.

S. K.  What are your suggestions for Dalits fighting for justice and equity? How Dalits can be empowered?

RK. H. We have seen that the Dalit political movement as invigorated by Babu Kanshi Ram awakened and mobilised Dalits and became unprecedentedly successful. But the movement eventually came to a huge standstill not only because it received constant opposition from the high caste dominated political parties and establishment, but also because this movement left many Dalits out of its scope. A huge section of Dalits was lured by the political parties such as Congress and CPI (M) and BSP lost the votes of Dalits and went out of power. The ultimate failure of the movement clearly indicates that the Dalits cannot bring about any structural change in their lives through a political movement alone. As I said earlier also, the Dalits striving for justice and equity should try to initiate a cultural revolution. In addition, they should attempt to break the internal caste hierarchy prevalent among them and should shed off the inferiority complex imposed on them. They should assert their identity and culture without feeling ashamed of them.

Dr Suresh Kumar is an Assistant Professor of English at Govt. Skt. College Tungesh, Distt. Shimla, Himachal Pradesh