Author – Dr Suresh Kumar

S. K.: There is very little biographical detail available about you could you please tell me about yourself?

K. P.: I was born in 1957 in Hoshiarpur district of Punjab. My father was a government employee in the local Deputy Commissioner’s office. My family was not deprived in economic terms so got an opportunity to educate myself. I passed my M. A. in Punjabi from Punjab University Chandigarh. As a student, I was deeply influenced by the philosophy and vision of Buddha and Ambedkar. So, after the completion of my education, I joined dalit movement and worked with Baba Kanshi Ram. I have been the part of many campaigns and agitations initiated and led by him. I migrated to America in 1997 and got settled in California. I continued my activism even in America and founded the International Bahujan Organisation to organise the dalit immigrants in America.

S. K.: It is generally argued that traditional Punjabi societies have been liberal or less casteist as compared to other regions such as Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu Andhra and Kerala etc. to what extent do you agree on this?

K. P.: There is no treatment for this misconception. I am aware that there are many scholars and historians who have maintained that the Influence of Islam and the Sikhism resisted Hinduism and made Punjabi society caste neutral or less casteist as compared to other regions. But they blind spot the fact that despite liberal ethos evoked by Islam and to some extent by Sikhism, the Punjabi dalits were subjected to untouchability and poverty. There were the voices of resistance against the caste articulated by untouchables in medieval Punjab. So, I would say that the caste system was equally rigid and harsh in Punjab.

S. K.: Dalit literature is written out of social commitment and it aims to awaken dalit masses and render dalit consciousness among them. Do you also write for the same purpose?

K. P.: It is unfortunate on the part of India that its best literature has been recognized as dalit Literature. This kind of literary classification cannot be seen in other parts of the world. If writing for the issues of the downtrodden, oppressed and economically weak is called dalit Literature, then I accept that I do write so. Yes, I write to awaken and organise them to fight against oppression and injustices.

S. K.: Punjabi dalits are considered to be in better position in terms of education, employment, social and economic status as compared to other Indian states, but your poems in the Days will Come Back present them still impoverished and heavily subjected to casteism, feudalism and poverty. Could you please elaborate more on it?

K. P.: There is no doubt that the Punjabi dalits are better than the dalits of other parts of India. However, this is not enough to validate that their lives are better than other dalits of India. In Punjab, the lives of the dalits of Majha and Malwa region are more miserable as compared to the Doaba region. The dalits of Punjab are victims of caste discrimination. Though, Punjab does not have big landlords but it has small feudal who never miss an opportunity to put down respectfully living dalits. My poems depict those scenarios which are either unknown to them or they knowingly ignore them. The majority of Punjabi literature deals with the issues relating to farming. The landless and skilled have been alienated from the Punjabi literary domain as if they don’t even exist. In my poems, I endeavor to empower the dalits of India to the level of other established classes. The casteism in Punjab is so evident that without the common Punjabi language there is nothing common between the different castes. Everything is characterised by dichotomy, hatred and violence.

S. K.: Your poems in Days will Come Back show dalits as the victims of the religious exploitation and you have criticised Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam and Christianity as inequalitarian and discriminatory institutions. What according to you could be the alternative religion for dalits?

K. P.: All religions claim that god is one then why are there multiple religions? Actually, these so-called faiths or religions are nothing but the apparatuses to befool and swindle dalits and also to economically exploit them. As we know there is no place for compassion, love equity and rationalism in any religion. Almost every religion is given to certain superstitions, pretentions and hypocrisies and legitimises discriminations. I think Buddhism is the only faith that condemns all kinds of disparities in the name of caste, class, gender, community and race, and also teaches that if an argument does not pass the test of logic, it should be deserted. So, I think Buddhism, as also suggested by Babasaheb, is the only religious alternative for dalits.

S. K.: You know well that dalits are granted reservation in politics to ensure their empowerment and political representation, but despite that they still are on the political margins. What according to you accounts for this disparity?

K. P.: Political reservation was an attempt to give representation to dalits but I think it has not served the purpose. The main reason for this failure is that the dalit leaders are not free enough to take their decisions and work for their communities. They are dominated by the high caste Hindu leaders who coerce dalit politicians to behave and act as they wish or like. In addition, the dalit leaders work for their own benefits and ignore the prominent social and economic issues and the pain of their own people.

S. K.: In your poem you have referred to the dictators such as Hitler and Saddam. Can you please illustrate what this stands for?

K. P.: Hitler and Saddam divided humanity and create a notion of superiority and inferiority to retain their positions. Similarly, casteism and the High born Hindus also have created the notion of high and low and have managed to rule dalits. So, I think there are similarities between Hitler and Saddam and casteist Hindus.

S. K.: The dalit characters portrayed in this collection (Days will Come Back) are awakened and they struggle for their rights and strive for their dignity and identity. Do you think that the modern Indian dalits are conscious and powerful enough to fight back against the casteist and feudalists?

K. P.: I think the socio-economic changes brought about by the Britishers and the constitutional provisions that Baba Sahib Dr. BR Ambedkar made to safeguard the rights of dalits have improved the condition of Indian dalits to a greater extent. The modern dalit are being educated, economically self-reliant and are growing powerfully in every sphere of life. They have learnt to organize themselves and revolt against the repressive institutions and laws. My characters represent the dalits who are conscious of the mechanism of their suffering, fight against injustices and strive for their rights and dignity.

S. K.: Your title poem (‘Days will….’) maintains that dalits who still are the victims of poverty and injustices will be able to empower themselves and bring about happiness and prosperity in their lives on day. What forms your optimism in this poem?

K. P.: The light of knowledge is capable of bringing positive changes in society. It is noted that with the spread of education and Ambedkar’s messages, the dalits are organizing themselves and also are fighting for their rights. So, the optimism as the poem evinces is based on this observation.

S. K.: You have taken up the issues of poor and dalit women and their specific suffering in a caste and gender dominated society. What measures according to you should be taken to empower and liberate the dalit women?

K. P.: Dalit women are the worst victims of caste, class, gender and religion-based exploitation. They are treated as most despicable, polluting and are not even considered human. They are beaten, molested, abducted, raped and murdered both by dalit and non-dalit men. The most crimes against them go unnoticed or unreported. I think in order to empower dalit women, it is very important to educate, unite them and also given them equal job opportunities. Besides, there should be separated courts and laws to protect them and ensure justice for them.

S. K.: Being a dalit diaspora did you ever face casteism from high caste immigrants in the USA?

K. P.: Caste is a deep religious concern for the high born Indians. So, they carry it with them wherever they go in the world. It is noted that their adherence to caste and the precept of purity and pollution is equally stringent everywhere. Let me give you an example of this. I live in California and here we have numerous Gurudwaras and temples. The dalit immigrants are discriminated against in the high caste Hindu temples and high born Sikh Gurudwaras. Dalits have built their own temples and Gurudwaras. For instance, we have six dalit Gurudwaras, also called Guru Ravidas temples in California. The construction of separate temples and Gurudwaras by dalits implies the presence of casteism not only in America but also in the other countries of the world.

S. K.: Will you please tell us something about your experiences as an immigrant?

K. P.: My immigrant life has been really good. You get paid for your hard work. Everyone gets an equal opportunity to progress as per the qualification. May this also happen in India!

S. K.: Finally what is your message for Indian dalits?

K. P.: My suggestion is that dalits should struggle for education and they should acquire it to the maximum of their ability. They should organise themselves and fight collectively for their rights, justice, dignity and identity. They should try to bring out a cultural revolution to annihilate caste and to safeguard the future of India, its unity and its federal structure.

About Author – Dr Suresh Kumar is an Asst. Professor of English at Govt. College Tungesh, District Shimla, Himachal Pradesh

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