Transcript of Dr Ambedkar’s 1953 Interview with BBC – When Dr Ambedkar Said Democracy Won’t Work in India
Recently BBC released a part of the video of Babasaheb Ambedkar’s interview with BBC. You can find that video at the end of this post. Here I present the transcript of the interview of Dr. B. R. Ambedkar with BBC that took place in 1953. In the interview, Dr. Ambedkar discusses the issues of democracy and it’s future in India. [Voice of the video is not very clear so please excuse me if I have made any mistake while transcribing it and would love to improve it so if you find any mistake or have some suggestion please let me know in the comments section. Thank you!]
BBC – Dr. Ambedkar do you think that democracy is going to work in India?
Dr. Ambedkar – No, I would say in a formal sense if you want.
BBC – What do you mean?
Dr. Ambedkar – [inaudible]… some periodic elections, Prime Minister and so on and so on.
BBC – Are elections very important?
Dr. Ambedkar – No, elections are important if they produce really good men [? or did he say ‘means’ ?]
BBC – But elections are important because they give a chance to change the government.
Dr. Ambedkar – Yes, but who has an idea that voting means the change of the government? Nobody has. People have no consciousness and our electoral system never allows to choose the candidate. Now, for example, Congress says vote for the Bullock, the question never comes who represents the Bullock. Nobody cares who is the candidate behind the Bullock election symbol. People will vote only for election symbol. People don’t know whether the election symbol Bullock is being represented by a Donkey or an educated person.
BBC – What do you mean by formal sense, in the fundamental sense that democracy wouldn’t work?
Dr. Ambedkar – We have a social structure which is totally incompatible with the parliamentary system.
BBC – Do you mean it is based on inequality?
Dr. Ambedkar – Yes, it is based on inequality. Unless you get rid of the caste system, you can’t fix. It is a question of social structure and it should be outcaste (or did he say ‘outlawed’). I am quite prepared to say that it would take some time to fix the social structure if you want to fix in a peaceful way. But then somebody must be making the efforts to change the social structure.
BBC – But Prime Minister is giving many statements against the caste system in his speeches.
Dr. Ambedkar – These are endless speeches. [Inaudiable but sounds like he said here – When Carlyle was presented with volumes by Spencer, he said oh these English speaking are acting like Christians now or he said oh this endless speaking ass in Christiandom…] We are fed up with the speeches now some concrete actions should be taken, such as some programs and schemes should be started so that some real work is done [to eradicate caste system].
BBC – Suppose if all this didn’t work, what alternative do you think?
Dr. Ambedkar – As an alternative, anything is possible, for example, communism.
BBC – Why do you think that democracy would not work for the nation? Wouldn’t living standard of people improve?
Dr. Ambedkar – Who really cares about the elections business? People want food, people want their materialistic needs to be satisfied. In America, there is a democracy and it works and I don’t think there would ever be communism in America. I have just arrived from that country. They had invited me to award me a degree. In America, every citizen’s voice is heard.
BBC – But this can start in India also.
Dr. Ambedkar – How? We don’t have much land, rainfall rate is much lower, our forests are less. What can we do?
BBC – How do you think these problems can be tackled?
Dr. Ambedkar – I don’t think the present government will be able to tackle these problems. [inaudible]
BBC – So you mean the whole system will collapse?
Dr. Ambedkar – Yes, indeed, pretty soon probably. If the foundation of the building begins to collapse, it’s the lower strata that would be more damaged, that means my own people, untouchables.
BBC – Do you think communists would have any impact?
Dr. Ambedkar – No, they are not working. They have trust in me and I haven’t said anything till now. If they will ask then one day I will give the answer.
Transcribed by Pardeep Attri
Well, some of the small things missed out from the transcript.
The following is actually the closest transcript of the interview –
Interviewer: Dr. Ambedkar, do you think democracy is going to work in India?
Ambedkar: No. Except in a formal sense, if you want.
Interviewer: What do you mean?
Ambedkar: The real… you know the paraphernalia of democracy. Quinquennial elections, Prime Ministers and so on and so on.
Interviewer: But ‘surely’ (probably) elections are very important?
Ambedkar: No. Elections are important provided they produce really good men.
Interviewer: But aren’t they important because they allow you to change the government? I mean it’s better to change…
Ambedkar: Yes, but who has got the idea, you see, that voting means change of government? Nobody has. People have no consciousness. And our electoral system, you see, is of a sort which never allows the man to choose the candidate. Now, for instance, the Congress went and said, “vote for”, what, “vote for bullock (election symbol)”.
Interviewer: Yes.
Ambedkar: Isn’t it?
Interviewer: Yes.
Ambedkar: Well! The man never cared who represented the bullock. Whether it was a donkey who represented the bullock, you see, or a very educated man who represented the bullock. He simply voted for the bullock.
Interviewer: Well, that’s coming to ‘meaning’ (probably) party systems, but what do you mean in a formal sense? You mean it in a fundamental sense, you…
Ambedkar: Democracy will not work for the simple reason, we’ve got a social structure which is totally incompatible with parliamentary democracy.
Interviewer: What… Do you mean it’s based on equality… inequality?
Ambedkar: Yes, it is based on inequality, you see.
Interviewer: And therefore unless you get rid of the caste system…..
Ambedkar: Social structure has got to be altered. I am quite prepared to say that, well, it will take some time for the social structure to be altered if you are going to do it in a peaceful way.
Interviewer: Yes.
Ambedkar: You see? But then somebody must be making the effort to change the social structure.
Interviewer: But your prime minister has made a lot of speeches against the caste system…
Ambedkar: These endless speeches, you know! You see, when Carlyle was given a set of volumes by Spencer?
Interviewer: Yes.
Ambedkar: You see, he said, “Oh! This endless speaking ass in Christiandom!”
Interviewer (laughs): Well…
Ambedkar: It is the same sort. One is sick of speeches. We have to have action.
Interviewer: Well, what action do you want?
Ambedkar: Some programme, you see. Some machinery, by which the thing would be altered. Some action.
Interviewer: Well supposing…supposing it doesn’t work, what alternative do you see?
Ambedkar (musing): Well, the alternative as I think, is, some kind of communism.
Interviewer: And why do you think that would work…help the country more…
Ambedkar: (incomprehensible)
Interviewer: Would it raise the standard of living of the people?
Ambedkar: Yes it does.
Interviewer: How?
Ambedkar: Undoubtedly. I mean who cares really for this election business? People want food. People want their material needs to be satisfied. In a democracy…in America, yes I agree, you see, that democracy works, and I don’t think there ever would be communism in America. I have just come from that country.
Interviewer: Yes.
Ambedkar: I was invited to give a degree…get a degree. That’s because an American…each American earns so much.
Interviewer: Well, you could begin to do that here, too?
Ambedkar: Well, how can you begin to do? They say we have no land, our rainfall is so short, our forests have been denuded. What can we do? You see?
Interviewer: Well, you have…
Ambedkar: Unless you tackle these problems.
Interviewer: Do you think…
Ambedkar: I don’t think the present government will be able to tackle these problems.
Interviewer: The communists would wipe out…
Ambedkar (affirmatively): Haan!
Interviewer: …the poor people.
Ambedkar: That doesn’t matter to my mind.
Interviewer: You mean there are men who think that would be a better (incomprehensible)
Ambedkar: Yes there are mean who think that would be a better (incomprehensible). We always do that sort of a thing, you know?
Interviewer: What…in this country?
Ambedkar: Yeah we always do, I mean, in war, you kill people, don’t you? You are not sorry because you have killed so many people.
Interviewer: We are sorry…
Ambedkar: Because you find it necessary because…you find it necessary to do so in order to safeguard your interest.
(Cut forward)
Interviewer: This system is likely to…
Ambedkar (affirmatively nodding): Collapse, collapse, yes, I think it will collapse.
Interviewer: How soon?
Ambedkar: Well, pretty soon.
(Cut forward)
Ambedkar: …my own people. Very impatient. I judge…I judge by my people, you see, and who are the lowest rung of the strata, you see. You know…
Interviewer: Yes.
Ambedkar: If the foundation of a building begins to collapse, it is first the lower strata, that collapses.
Interviewer: Do you mean by “my people” the untouchables?
Ambedkar (affirmatively): The Untouchables.
Interviewer: And are the communists working among them?
Ambedkar: No, they are not working, because they have faith in me. And I haven’t said anything, so far.
Interviewer: Yes.
Ambedkar: You see. But, they have been asking me (four incomprehensible words).
Interviewer: Yes.
Ambedkar: They have been asking me. And I have to give some answer some day.
Many things which you said incomprehensible were somewhat comprehensible.
When I read this article. I was amazed.
I was amazed by long sight vision of Babasaheb.
Means he already knew what will be condition of this country after few years
thanks Pradeepji I have not seen Dr Bab
alive BUT i was really impressed to see it
I would say that i got a chance
G P Ambhoreasaheb
thanks Pradeepji I have not seen Dr Babasaheb
alive BUT i was really impressed to see it
I would say that i got a chance
G P Ambhore
Thanks Pardeep for transcription. Without this, it would be impossible to understand what babasaheb says. Thank you once again.
Very like. Great thanks
Thanks a lot BBC for this wonderful interview. Hope such types of interviews would be published in future also. Thanks a lot again.
Thanks Pardeep. A great job done by you.
With warm wishes.
Dr.Berwa